More on Spirituality I (Archive)
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Buddhism
Wednesday, 29-Mar-2000 13:43:02

Message:
金金:

收到你的Email和看了你的女風流兩次,我連你做節目都有聽少少。很好!很適合你。

我細心地想了好幾遍。完全明白你對佛、佛教、佛教徒的概括想法和問題。首先,我真的不知道原來我從日常談話裡去表達佛教的意思是如此差勁而令你有所不解,真的對不起。我希望我今次能夠可以清楚去正那些問題。這個對我來說是一種責任和心意。因為我也是一個認真的人。哈哈!

一:佛教從不認為自己是唯一的宗教。佛教是不排外的。

二:佛說所謂女性難以成佛是指生理的苦較男性多外,亦因女性的各種情感上亦較男性煩惱為多。

三:佛教所依止的並不是被男性控制,佛教所依止的是佛說的道理。然後自己去判斷,所謂「依法不依人」嘛!

四:佛像也不過只是用泥做出來罷了。當中並無任何神力可言。供養或禮拜是表示尊重佛的精神。而佛像或畫像亦能有提醒自己和吸引眾生生起慈悲。

五:上次我所說有膽打破佛像的事,全因我想帶出佛教的核心思想----因緣法(一切事物都有賴條而件而出現)就算連佛像也不例改,有其出現、改變或消滅的時間。故我們對一切因緣而成的東西也不應執著,連佛說的道理也不例外。正如你乘坐渡海小輪過海,你會否帶隻船回家?佛的道理只是一種度化眾生的工具。好了,我真的長氣。不過這個是的責任。

宋寶寶




to ms nufeng liu
Monday, 05-Jun-2000 02:16:15

Message:
i've just read your latest dairy about june 4th massacre. i agree with everything you write except the part about retribution. do you really believe in bad ppl would be punished at last? i dont think so and i dont think it's a good and effective way to seek for peace of mind. the world is ruled by the law of random, i believe. life is meaningless, there's no judgement, no punishment. nature is unconscious. maybe only detachment can help us to attain peace of mind. of course detachment is different from ignorance and indifference.

dont rely on believing retribution, it would make you more confused and painful.

tortured mind

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Replies:
hi tortured mind, i don't like the idea of having retribution as the foundation of any ethic either, for that takes  us all to the fear mode, and the whole concept of morality would be reduced into a matter of power struggle  (eg if u are powerful then u can avoid retribution). of course if we assume there is a god and a last jugement,  then no individual, no matter how powerful on earth, can avoid it:) u sound very existentialist when u talk  about your adherence to the law of random, and that life is meaningless. i have been pondering about those questions for a long time, but still haven't found any satisfactory answer. but wouldn't the belief that life has no meaning make one feel more down and pessimistic? i would like to think that there are some hidden meanings and beauty in life for us to discover, and that all beings (including animals and other living  creatures) are interconnected as one, like Spinoza's substance, and every event is interconnected with all other  events through th...(bam) (06-Jun-2000 18:10:20)

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hi bam, really happy to get feedback, especially sincere one
Wednesday, 07-Jun-2000 01:31:00

i may sound pessimistic when i say 'life is meaningless'. in fact i AM pessimistic about life, love, human nature... i have never dug into the thinkings of existentialism. i have no idea. but sure i agree with the law of causality. it sounds soothing and capable of providing peace for the human mind.

i am not follower of any religions in this world. but i always incline to thinkings or philosophies which ask ppl to free from worldly desires or burdens or indulgences. i find my peace in feminism, buddhism, meditation... i was (or am) torturing from the everlasting self inquiry of the meaning of life. i can never find an answer, i believe. and i don't believe in any absolute truth or value. in this world, it seems ppl have nothing to believe and rely on. the simplest way is to rely on my own 'heart'. my only wish is my 'heart' can be strong and clear enough till the end.

now i try not to ask the never-ending question of 'what's the meaning of life?' cos one day the idea of 'life is meaningless' stroke into my mind and strangely, it does sooth me and shed a new light on me. yes, life is meaningless. its very meaning is created by my 'heart'. i believe in what i feel, no matter what's believed by other ppl or the whole society. no matter how different i am. life is meaningless and also, life is defined by myself. it sounds more tortured to if we believe in any absolute value or final judgement. i believe in what i am believing NOW. in fact, i don't know if there's any universal or absolute truth.

bam, thanks for your reply. i have little chance to share with others my 'tortured mind'.
 

tortured mind

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and to the woman who creates nufengliu, i must tell you i admire you so much. you are gutsy and you create a wonderful space for all the gutsy women, like me :) keep going! (tortured mind (but with guts too))(07-Jun-2000 01:36:14)

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給tortured mind
Wednesday, 07-Jun-2000 13:43:37

Message:

你的‘筆名’好令人震陷,幾乎可以感受到裡面鮮血淋漓的痛楚,令我想起一本叫《靈魂的苦索者》的書(那本書不幸好垃圾)。

沒想過真的有人回應,如你所說,尤其是誠意的。很感動。我想,在bam的回應和你給bam的回應裡已經說了,其實所謂天理循環的想法,都是為了讓自己安心而已。我是一個有信仰的人(但我和你一樣,抗拒形式宗教),因此,‘有報應’,‘有審判’這等觀念,已深深植根在我的意識裡,同時,這也合理化了我自己‘要做好人’,‘要執著公義’等等的想法。

對,我亦不相信有絕對的真理、絕對的價值,尤其當這些東西經過人手處理,一定已受到污染。我只是相信/希望有超越一切,但完全無情、不受萬物意志影響的巨大力量,會為我們的所作所為來個公正的判決。
或者這只是‘失敗者’在被擊倒的時候一廂情願的想法。

最近看了一本叫《自以為是的豬3》的漫畫,是一本可以回味很久的書。自以為是的豬上下求索,希望尋找生命的意義,結果卻發現人生其實可能是沒有意義的。意義只是人心造出來送給生命的禮物。我常想,假如我是我家的貓,我會不會問一個如此無聊的問題呢﹖花無名無姓,但花仍活得很好。

最後,謝謝你的支持,我不是甚麼gusty woman,過獎了,我其實是個冇膽匪類,只是想得太多而已。anyway,希望你得閒多點上來玩,得我一個女,又如何風流得來呢﹖

甘甘

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a thought on the last judgement and 'karmic retribution'
Wednesday, 07-Jun-2000 21:28:17

Message:

hi tortured mind and gum gum,

it's great that we can have such a cool and deep discussion on this quiet site (no offense here gum gum, just wish more ppl would know about this site).

when i was a kid, i was surrounded by the catholic environment, ths concepts like the last judgement are deeply embedded in me. later on in life, i was more drawn towards buddhism, and felt the notion of karma very enlightening, as if it explains a lot.

nowadays, i am more a pyrrhonist who suspend judgements about the plausibility of those notions. yet, one thing i find quite disturbing when i reflect about the possible reasons why this kind of concepts, e.g. last judgement and karmic retribution, to my surprise, it seems to me that those who are in the ruling position can deploy such concepts to serve their political agenda. for instance, by promoting the concept of karmic retribution, people are led to believe that the reasons they are poor and are in the lower class of the society are simply that they had done something bad in their previous lives, thus they have to ACCEPT the circumstances of this life time in order to repay the 'debt' or to purge the sin or whatever. when people accept that, they would lose their incentive to fight for their own justice within this life time, for they would not see what is happening to them as unfair.

by persuading ppl to accept, the oppressors can continue to exploit the oppressed, and the oppressed continue to live in their other-worldly dream, whether by believing there is a better world out there after death, or by believing that they are paying their karmic debts for their past lives, and are earning more karmic merits for their next lives..... viz. they lose their incentive to fight for their own rights and justice, for they are indulged in those comforting beliefs..... perhaps that explains why i now not only resist religious rituals, but some of the beliefs they promote as well....

bam

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oh yeah, oh yeah!
Thursday, 08-Jun-2000 03:06:14

Message:

bam,你說得很對。掌權者利用業報和輪迴這些觀念來剝削人民,不是 甚麼新鮮的事,這也是令我在佛教信仰上徘徊不前的其中一個重點。我 是一個born catholic,自少接受(帝國主義傳統那一種)天主教教育,很強調馴服聽命(現在的天主教會已不是那樣了),我當然沒有這樣做,最後還離開了教會。

長大後,我又回到基督徒的組織工作,戰友都是執著於基督信仰中「公義」部分的人,他/她們都強調耶穌在世時對不義和偽善的挑戰和反抗,並以此為榜樣。我想,這對我而言是很重要的影響。近期我對佛學產生了濃厚興趣,而那種業報的理論,又讓我陷入了迷思好一陣。我想,我最難把佛家信仰和我本身的猶太-基督信仰compatible的其中最大一點,就是對公義的看法。

彷彿(我的佛知識淺薄,請各方友好指正),佛家執著善,但最終是要放棄任何執著。而善與公義又好像沒有甚麼關連,尤其是這幾年來我自己親眼目睹社會上那麼多恐怖的不義事情發生,佛教徒,即使是口口聲聲要為眾生謀福祉的大乘佛教徒,好像也沒有以佛教徒的名義站出來說過一句話,甚至只是祈祈禱,做做法事。我知我很膚淺,又大基督徒本位(其實我並不定位自己為基督徒),認為非要如此表達公義不可,但在這個社會中,人們就是如此表達意見的了!well,可能其實在反抗的行列中有很多佛教徒,但他/她這樣做,卻可能與佛教信仰無關,只是個人行為。當政府以至社會大眾都行著極大的惡的時候,佛教徒保持沉默,又怎能在日常生活裡叫人行善積福呢(其他宗教徒不還是一樣,這樣子作為宗教徒,那倒不如不作的好了,免得犯了偽善罪)?

我不知道,這可能與佛教徒對業報和輪迴的信仰有關——一切到最後都有業報來收拾,下世你就知死……加上,大自然本來就是這樣的了,好像我最近看的一本書《傷心咖啡店之歌》,主角馬蒂到了馬達加斯加的曠野,親眼目睹一條村子因瘟疫滅亡,懂得醫術的流浪人「耶穌」卻堅持見死不救,後來他們上了一個高山,馬蒂終於覺悟:那是宇宙的本質,天地不仁,因為仁是人心所造,與天地無關,天地只是按本子辦事。

我不知道,我陷在公義的泥沼裡,又渴望著生命和痛苦的解脫;最近我暫停了想這個問題,得到了片刻的寧靜,但看來,我還是會繼續追尋下去。

唉!

甘甘

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Re: oh yeah, oh yeah!
Thursday, 08-Jun-2000 09:02:07

gum gum, it seems that you're more 'tortured' than me :)

yes, i'm also always stuck in the painful situation of involving in or detaching from this mundane world (sorry i'm poor in religious language, hope all sisters understand my 'tortured' language). the world is full of confusions and contradictions and consipiracy. there're plenty of 'prestigious' religions and beliefs, but in this evil world, they're very often diminished into ready instruments for powerful ppl to use for safeguard their selfish interests. like the helpless stupid old man mr. tung, look at how he using confucianism to strengthen his imagined utopia of 'harmonious' society.

religion is not necessary being able to make ppl more enlightened. what is upheld by a religion can be very different from what it's follower's apply in reality. so gum gum, don't be confused by what followers of buddhism do in realty, just focus on your own enlightment. a religion is not defined by it's followers or authoritative interpreters or preachers. it's defined by yourself, your own understanding. like justice, we have our own definition and sure would live by it.

of course, it's all my own ungrounded views. everyone is seeking for lifelong for something to rely on and to attain their peace of mind. you can believe everything if it eases your pain. but sure, the universe has its own path. human beings are just one of the millions of creatures on the earth, why should 'the masters of universe' serve us more?! live only by what our mind tells us, like my little cat, i believe she has her own definition of 'justice', and she is happy and 'untortured' cos she lives by her heart.

gum and bam, it's so strange we start to dig into our own mind deeper and deeper without any 'foreplays'. wonderful, you two make me think more and know more. tortured mind is so overjoyed!

tortured mind




(No subject)
Friday, 09-Jun-00 19:53:10

Dear gum gum and tortured mind, what a blessing for us to share our views and get connected in this cyber-reality, and how i admire u two: gum gum's passion for righteousness and justice, and tortured mind's transcendental rationality for intellectual freedom.

i agree that organized religions can be very disappointing, for they can become instruments for those who have power to manipulate the masses. nothing is more horrible than seeing ppl's beliefs being manipulated, i.e. to be brain-washed. to that extent, i guess it is the duty of every human being to think for herself, that is, to reflect upon the beliefs that are being 'fed' to her. (of course, even after much scrutiny, everyone still has her own blind spot, but at least she has minimized the chances of being misled.) nonetheless, that's not quite the same thing as setting up our own definitions. in fact, it seems to me, there is a strong flavour of subjectivism/relativism in the claim of setting up one's own definitions, and by doing so, wouldn't we lose objectivity, and hence the Truth (if the truth implies or presupposes objectivity)? in other words, even though i can set up my own definitions for every concept, such as the concept of justice, my own definitions would not have any objective meaning (unless if they happen to coincide with yours and others'). without the objective foundation for those definitions, morality would become futile and impotent, for we can no longer say to the person who does harm to us that s/he is doing the wrong thing, for s/he can simply reply that from her perspective and according to her definitions, s/he is doing the right thing!! of course, even granting that there are truth and objectivity do not mean that we can be certain if we've got it, that's why we need constant dialogues and communications with ppl of the same and different views. Empathy (for it's hard to step into another person's shoes to see how she feels and thinks) and good will are desperately needed too, for it's so easy to have misunderstanding and antagonism when ppl of diversed perspectives try to put forward their own views. (eg. the rich capitalists often blame the labourers for being lazy and not working hard enough; whereas the working class often blames the bosses for being exploitative and greedy...)

i guess ultimately it is not the dogma of any religion that matters (e.g. whether Mary was really a virgin when she gave birth to jesus, or whether there really is a heaven or buddha land for us to go after this life), but rather the moral sentiments and ways of life that are advocated by those religions, eg. their advocacy for compassion, love, forgiveness, righteousness, justice, equality, wisdom etc..... i wish i have the wisdom to know the path, but even though i don't, i still dream of a better world in which all beings, no matter how diverse, can be who we/they are, and can flourish and live in harmony... there is no logical inconsistency in this dream, only practical challenges that may or may not be overcome......

bam

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dearest bam, u have stated out the confusion which i'm so keen to pondering but always in vain...

Saturday, 10-Jun-00 03:58:11
203.184.180.10 writes:

when i have shed off the 'objectivity' which society has imposed on me during my young life, i am untill now unable to construct my own 'sustainble' bulwark of 'subjectivity'... that's why i'm so 'tortured'... i'm fighting for 'justice' but at the other side, i dont know what's the meaning of 'justice...  i'm trying to make myself live above the mundane world, attempt to make myself more clear-minded... but it seems detachment only would make me more arrogant and lonely...

bam, your philosophical knowledge 'frightens' me :) what a great thinker!!!! and sure your replies shed new light on me... always make me fall into reflection... and trying to be critical of my own way of thinking...

i'm so thirst for enligtenment... i bought tons of books but i still cant find my peace of mind, could u suggeat something for me to read? sometimes at night, i am so desperate, standing before my book shelf and feel so 'empty' and lost...

tortured mind

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Re: dearest tortured mind,
Sunday, 11-Jun-00 06:40:11

i still can't stop myself from laughing everytime i think of the 'coincidence'; u may call this 'the identity of indiscernibles' under different names:) how wonderful it is to be able to meet like-minded friends here. u wouldn't know how much i've learnt from your and gum gum's writings. and how i hunger for this kind of frank philosophical/political/religious exchanges, if i try to discuss this kind of topics with the ppl around me, either they would think i'm weird and boring, or the religous ones would get offended:( so i usually don't talk much about those things.

as far as books are concerned, frankly, i don't read very much, for i am a very slow reader (sometimes it takes me years to finish reading a book). but there are a few books i've read which u may find interesting: Rene Descartes, Meditations. it is where the famous quote 'i think, therefore i am/exist' comes from. it's a good fun to read, for it makes u wonder whether or not u are dreaming, or even, being deceived by an evil demon. u can cast doubt on anything except your own existence.

other interesting works include the surviving writings of Sextus Empiricus. he is a great sceptic in the 2nd century AD. after serious searching for the TRUTH, he realised that truth cannot be found, so in the end he simply suspends all judgements and be happy to live in the world of appearances. my other favourites includes Plato's Republic and his Symposium (which is about love, esp love between men^^); Lebniz's Monadology; Spinoza's Ethics.... the works of Chuang Tze and Loa Tze are good fun to read, but the classical chinese is tough for me to understand....

what about u? what are your favourites? please give me some recommendation.

take care and talk to u more soon.

bam

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in fact... i like to read erotica more...
Sunday, 11-Jun-00 08:03:43
208.167.235.165 writes:

just kidding (tho it's true to some extend)

i havent been seriuosly read any classical philisophical, just some glances during my undergraduate years
at univiersity, but similar to you, i'm more inclined to the thinkings of lao tze and chang tze. it's like a click on me when i first read their writings at my teenage years. i like most the spirit of freedom and the transcendentalist touch pervailing in lao chang's thinkings. i hate all rigid mentalities and categorisations, that's why i'm so feelingless to confucianism. some buddhist teachings also enlighten me, like the sayingd 'life is unstable and unpredictable', all human tortures are originated from our own heart. to obtain wisdom from 'nothing' and to obtain security from 'unstability' is the way to ultimate peace of mind. i am not devoted followers of any beliefs and maybe i confuse the thinkings of different schools of thinkings. i'm also tremendouly interested in feminism. the spirit of freedom, the subversive nature of feminism help me to take off my rigid and discriminative views of the world. feminism frees myself from a lot of mental confinements which i was so unconsciously believed and used to restrict my development and pleasure as well.

but i am a lazy reader, tho a big spender on books. i bought a shelf of books about critical thinkings and from time to time remind myself to study them but most often, i am so ready to reach for entertaining ones, i can finish one women-to-women erotica in one day but may have to spend my whole life to finish books like 'feminine mystique' (tho it's really a thought provoking book, it invites me to reflect upon the dark age of feminism we're facing now in hongkong).

and also the novels of eileen chang, a famous women writer in the 40s in shanghai give me many new insights on life and human natures. i think her novels are influential in shaping my philosophy of life during my school years and even now, i find her views of life echoed in my heart.

and a few months ago, i discovered a popular buddhist comic which is very enlightening. it does ease some of my tortures. i will show you when you come to hongkong.

yes ele, i often have no one to turn to when i want to have philosophical exchanges. i remember the years i was so lonely and hungry for this kind of sharing in university but sadly there're no one interested to talk this kind of 'boring' stuff. friends didnt understand why i need to be tortured by those questions as 'what's the meaning of life'. i'm not a student of philosophy, so ppl just thought i was strange...

anyway, thank you for your recommendations. and look forward to sharing more later in hong kong.

have u watched 'better than chocolate'? i like this film. 'boys dont cry' is too sad...

tortured mind
 



佛法
Wednesday, 30-Aug-00 09:12:34
203.184.139.165 writes:

阿金;
很高興得知你對佛教感興趣,其實佛教不是消極,也不會造縮頭龜,但因為佛法的內容實在妙不可言,在這裡實在一言難盡,有興趣的話請電我,而如果你問我佛法是什麼?我會答你是喝茶和睡覺。

杏仁

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Replies:
hi almond, it's very nice meeting u last week at sakura. thanx a lot for teaching us so much:) will u go there again next wednesday? it'll be nice to chat more with u on 'she shou' and buddhism. take care, cheers. (n/t) (helena) (31-Aug-0012:47:42)

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多謝你的回音,但因為我很少上來,故未有回你的留言,實在不好意思。 (n/t) (almond) (05-Oct-00 11:57:36)

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多謝你上來坐
Sunday, 10-Sep-00 05:44:38
202.67.171.95 writes:

杏仁:
真高興見到你。對,我近半年多對佛法產生了興趣,也在這個message board裡跟一些朋友交換意見。本來大家談得好好的,但不久後她們都跳了糟,便沒有繼續下去。其實,經過了這幾個月的追尋,我對信仰又有了另一種新看法。我這次去台北買了一行禪師的《生生基督世世佛》,未看內容,但相信這本書和我的想法會有點近。有點近不是說我又要攀龍附驥,只是所謂跨信仰的說法,對我自小持有的對宗教的拒抗和對靈性的追尋有了一點支持和印證,原來世上不止我一人這想而已。你從我的網頁中看,大概想像到我決定把這些想法進一步具體提出,找尋同道者。請你多些上來坐吧!
=^.^=

甘甘



(No subject)
Sunday, 24-Sep-00 13:06:57

甘甘,

你好.亞植呀.好欣賞你和liz對網上女性的參與.甘甘,若有機會,更希望有機會與你分享有關信仰的議題,因我是一個基督徒.但在婦女工作裡令我對信仰有很多反省的機會.而我的教會也較開放,能接納不同的聲音.

亞植(carrie)
 



(No subject)
Wednesday, 04-Oct-00 20:19:49

很好啊, 有這個討論佛教的網頁.
我對佛教認識不多, 但很有興趣.
有些無知問題想發問..

蟬和佛教,怎麼區分?
發展路程是有關聯的嗎 ?
理念方面有什麼分別?

byebye
路過阿十下次再上來向各位前輩討教.

路過阿十

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佛教由印度東傳至今已發展出很多流派,而禪宗是其中一派,中國禪第一祖為達摩禪師,禪風比較超脫,漢武帝時代,達摩東來,當時已言禪宗不立文字之法。而佛教用最間單的方法來說,可分為密宗和顯宗兩種,密宗者含有部分印度教和婆羅門教的色彩,而顥教則較有華夏文化色彩。但兩者之別甚殊,在此一言難盡,有機會跟你漫談。 (n/t) (almond) (05-Oct-00 12:13:35)

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十姐, nice meeting u here:) far as i know 禪宗 (zen) is a branch of buddhism developed in china when master 'tak more' came. different branches of buddhism have different methods/practices. eg. 淨土宗 cares about praying/chanting 'amitaba', whereas some branches have their emphasis on mediation, some on rituals etc. i don't know much about zen, i think they practice mediation as well, but in the zen way. eg. 參話頭 (eg pondering: who is the person who is saying the name of the buddha?). it focuses on 'immediate enlightenment' (悟). ultimately, different branches are meant to lead to the same destination. though 大乘 is more concerned with rescuing all beings from suffering, whereas 小乘 cares more about one's personal 'salvation'. i believe zen belongs to 大乘 . actually i know very little about zen, but u can find a lot of books (and even cartoons) on it every where. cheers. (n/t) (bamb) (05-Oct-00 12:17:23)

--------------------
Thanks very much for Almond & sister Bamb's^^ reply, so now, i know more about it. Is there any homepage / website made by any hk buddhism association w/ lots of resources for the public? & where can i get cartoon online about that subject? ~~ thanks. (n/t) (Ah Sap) (07-Oct-00 03:09:27)
 




陳日君關於封聖的言論
Wednesday, 11-Oct-00 03:05:42
202.67.238.252 writes:

陳日君﹕我們還以為這類「運動」已成歷史
【明報專訊】
作者為﹕天主教香港教區助理主教

天主教香港教區助理主教陳日君投稿本報論壇版﹐強調梵蒂岡教廷冊封的聖人並非帝國主義者﹐並指摘中聯辦曾就他與內地主教通電話一事警告他「北京非常不滿」﹐又指中聯辦曾囑咐香港教區「低調」處理宣聖一事。本版特將陳主教的文章全文刊出﹐以助讀者了解事件真相。——編者

九月二十六日中共發表了一份「中國天主教愛國會、中國天主教主教團、關於梵蒂岡無視中國教會主權擬冊封所謂聖人的聲明」﹐措詞非常強硬。主教們在「宣聖」的事上這樣譴責教廷﹐是很嚴重的事。「宣聖」屬於教宗的「首席權」範圍。

內地教會被洗腦抵制封聖
不過﹐面對這「聲明」﹐我的第一個反應是問﹕「這真是主教們的立場嗎﹖是全體主教同意的嗎﹖至少有幾位主教贊成了嗎﹖」按中共傳統的手法﹐很有可能是掌權者的爪牙把這些話放在主教們的口中﹗希望事實能早日水落石出﹐讓我們知道在北京閉門的會議中究竟發生了什麼事。

最近在大陸突然颳起了一陣暴風﹐政府逮捕地上、地下的主教、神父、教友﹐組織地上教會各級領導的「學習營」(洗腦)﹐要他們在討論會後發表意見﹐而「應該發表的意見」已印成且而分發給大家﹕一、揭露西方列強利用天主教侵略中國的事實﹔二、中國天主教反帝愛國運動五十周年和堅持獨立自主﹐自辦教會﹔三、抵制梵蒂岡「封聖」活動。

毒辣陰謀強姦主教心靈
關注大陸教會的人士都在問﹕這突來的暴風究竟是為了什麼﹖是為向教廷施壓﹐逼他們在談判桌上全面投降﹖或是因為了解教廷不會投降而發泄憤怒﹖見到這「聲明」﹐我以為我有了答案﹕中共想對付的是地上的教會。

已一段時間地上教會的主教、神父逐一歸依羅馬﹐甚至有些地下教會人士也表示欣賞地上教會某些人士對羅馬的忠貞。政府怕就將失控了﹐現在有一個機會﹐可以把教廷指為敵人﹐逼地上主教、神父們表態就範﹗這毒辣的陰謀簡直是強姦主教、神父們的心靈﹐是最殘忍的逼害。

其實﹐為這場逼害佈局的人並不太精明。

一、說宣聖行動歪曲和篡改歷史的行徑﹔說封聖的對象中不少人劣跡斑斑《文匯報》說他們犯下「滔天罪行」﹐有人向埃切卡萊樞機說他們「槍劫、殺人、強姦婦女」﹗)

這些宣聖的對象﹐在列入真福品前早已經過非常嚴格的調查﹐教會法庭設有專員﹐徹底尋找反面的證據(所謂「魔鬼的律師」)﹐如有人犯了「滔天罪行」﹐絕不可能漏網。

中共說有證據。除非可以在中立的、公開的法庭上對簿﹐這些所謂證據有什麼價值﹖他們不是曾「有證據地」說廣州某修院的修女們殺死了數百嬰孩、吃了他們的心臟﹖(其實是人們把垂死的嬰孩放在修院門口﹐他們死後修女就把他們安葬了。)他們不是曾「有證據地」說上海某些傳教士在學校娷瓣F軍火﹖(原來那些是戲台上的道具木槍)又如果存在那些「滔天罪行」﹐為什麼在列真福品時﹐沒有人站出來指摘﹖

宣聖對象經嚴格審查

二、說將列聖品的傳教士中有些人是帝國主義侵略中國的幫兇。

帝國主義者侵略中國是鐵的事實﹐教廷處理事務也未必常常正確明智﹐「禮儀之爭」之類的錯誤令人遺憾。但這些即將被列入聖品的傳教士都是和平的福音使者﹐熱愛中國人的基督徒﹐他們慷慨地獻出了性命。帝國主義者強加「保護」給傳教士﹐其實牽累了他們。帝國主義者以殉道者的死亡為藉口﹐進行侵略戰爭﹐這決不是殉道者的意願。

帝國主義的國家多次阻止教廷直接和中國朝廷建交。剛恆毅主教終於來華任教廷大使﹐他和帝國主義者劃清界線甚至避免住在外交區。

人民的眼睛是雪亮的。中國教友們知道誰是帝國主義侵略者﹐誰是中國人民的朋友。他們信任傳教士﹐接受了他們所介紹的福音﹐信了耶穌﹐忠貞於祂﹐不惜流血。

三、反過來說﹐中共把義和團「封聖」﹐是否明智﹖中外的學者對這歷史的複雜事件未必敢如此肯定﹐政府明明從意識形態的角度作了一個抉擇﹗

四、外交部發言人說宣聖行動「極大地傷害中國人民的感情和中華民族的尊嚴」。

我們知道中國人民成了中共的私產正如法王曾說「國家就是我」)﹐但我們見到的是全球中華教友喜躍歡騰(除非中共政府把成千累萬的我們放在中國人民之外)﹔我們見到的是教宗及全球教會對中國民族的尊崇、愛戴。從十月一日起八十七位中華兒女「登上祭台」﹐全世界的信徒會瞻仰他們的卓越人格和偉大的信仰。
 

五、傷害無數中國人民的感情及全世界愛好和平者的心的﹐卻是中共最近對國內教會(地上、地下)的粗暴鎮壓﹐使人想起人民共和國初期的一些「運動」﹐甚至聯想到文化大革命。我們還以為這類「運動」已成了歷史﹐想不到在這所謂「開放的年代」﹐在這期待荈i入世貿的時刻﹐還能有這樣的情景發生。

我們國家的領導們知不知道這目下發生的事﹖為什麼讓一些為自己利益做事的人﹐進一步破壞我們國家的形象﹖

六、「聲明」抱怨「教廷在宣聖前沒有向冊封者所在地的主教和中國主教團徵詢意見﹐也沒有到當地進行調查核實﹐而是由所謂的『台灣地區主教團』越俎代庖」。

中聯辦警告我﹕北京非常不滿

中共從來不准許教廷和大陸主教們來往。本人曾和所謂中國主教團團長劉主教通過兩句電話﹐就引來中聯辦警告「北京對你非常不滿」。現在說要教廷徵詢他們的意見﹐真是笑話。

教廷更不能徵詢所謂中國主教團的意見﹐因為根本不能承認那在大陸獨立自辦教會的主教團。

至於說這次宣聖事件由台灣主教包辦﹐也不符合事實。固然台灣主教最出力推進宣聖的事﹐但申請教廷宣聖的也有港、澳及海外的主教﹐更有四十位大陸主教地上、地下都有)。至於調查工作絕不是台灣主教辦的﹐那是教廷專責部門擔任的。

國慶日宣聖教廷已道歉

七、至於宣聖的日子﹐十月一日﹐正好是中華人民共和國的建國日﹐那是一個意外的巧合。選日子是一個很實際的問題﹕千禧年中的許多星期天﹐教宗已有被安排了的節目﹐十月一日看來是僅餘的星期天﹐又是傳教主保聖女小德蘭的瞻禮日﹐那就被選定下來了。到時不止有一百二十位中華殉道﹐還有一位非洲修女及兩位修會創始人被冊封。

這個無意的巧合引起了很大的誤會。中共咬實說這是陰謀﹐是為了刺激他們。他們什麼都是從政治角度看﹐他們這樣的想法是可了解的。教廷沒有注意﹐是疏忽了。但在他們發表「聲明」前應該知道埃切卡萊樞機訪華回羅馬後﹐在接受梵蒂岡電台訪問時﹐已為此事表示深切的歉意﹔他更堅決地補充說﹕「愛中國人民的若望保祿絕不會想出這麼卑鄙的陰謀。」

八、「聲明」說梵蒂岡官方通訊社「信仰社」的評論員文章宣稱「封聖」是向北京政府的勇敢挑戰。首先該澄清﹕「信仰社」並不是梵蒂岡官方通訊社﹐只可說是半官方的﹐評論員的言論並不代表教廷。當然身為半官方通訊社的評論員﹐說話也該有分寸、負責任。在過去本人並不常贊同該評論員的言論﹐但這次中共錯怪了他。「聲明」中把「封聖是向北京政府的勇敢挑戰」解成「教廷勇敢地向北京政府挑戰﹐鼓勵教徒反抗政府」。其實原意是﹕「封聖向北京政府的勇氣挑戰」信仰社的中譯文顯然出了問題。跟著該文也說「封聖也向教會的勇氣挑戰」。)其實文章的意思很清楚﹐也就是說「在這宣聖的機會上我們向北京政府挑戰﹕擺出你們的勇氣﹗作出一個突破﹗接納現代文明對宗教自由的共識﹗相信虔誠的信徒也是愛國的公民﹗讓教會正常運作﹗讓信徒有機會參與建設祖國的光輝將來﹗」這一次我不能不同意他的說法。

中聯辦囑低調處理宣聖
中聯辦囑咐香港教區「低調」處理宣聖的事。這就難倒我們了。什麼是「高」、「低」的標準﹖我以為我們會毫無政治意向地慶祝這件宗教盛事。感謝上主藉傳教士的辛勞和犧牲﹐把福音的喜訊賜給了我們﹐也感謝衪在我們同胞中選拔了八十七位烈士﹐作為普世信徒的表率﹔求衪給我們勇氣﹐誓死不違背自己的良心﹐忠誠維護自己的信仰﹗

(小題及著重點為編者所加)
來源:http://www.mingpaonews.com/20001004/__gab1.htm

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Re:陳日君關於封聖的言論
Wednesday, 11-Oct-00 13:05:47
168.70.121.86 writes:

i feel a heavy load on my chest hearing about the response of 中共. how come they can be so 小氣? why they are so paranoid and assume that any move is meant to be against them? it MAY be the case that the vatican wants to challenge the tolerance of 中共, and our GREAT COMRADES are smart enough to be caught in that trap, and 自暴其醜 by reacting in such 不大量 way..... i don't know what the 87 中 華 殉 道 were really like, may be they are not worth to be 冊 封, or may be they are. but there is an irony here for 中共. if our GREAT COMRADES react so violently towards this, it means they implicitely buy into the catholic values, and see from the catholic perspective that by 冊 封 them, those 87 ppl attain a high status that they should not deserve. however, why should our GREAT COMRADES buy the catholic values? i thought they have their GREAT Marxist values, and that is the absolute truth. and from a marxist point of view, the catholics are merely evil entities spreading evil doctrines, like opium to enslave ppl... and from the marxist perspective, one would simply laugh at this 冊 封 as the impotent show of the capitalist mouth piece. it shouldn't worth our GREAT COMRADES the slightest attention, let alone to get angry, at such a monkey show!!!

bamb
 




Hi!
Wednesday, 18-Oct-00 09:56:11
203.198.91.231 writes:

Just to say hi! 好老土, 但這真是我的意思.我曾讀了13年天主教修女學校, 小時候很認真地投入教義, 儀式等, F2開始有懷疑, 修女又解不了我所提出的疑問, 遂自視為無神論者, 或不可知者, 但對人生深層意義或靈性的探索從未間斷. 但媽媽拜呂祖, 又信佛, 我也跟她去參與很多儀式, 到現在還對這些很有親切感. 前幾年經歷人生鉅變, 又人到中年, 心裡總有一個L烈追尋的欲望. 前年皈依觀音, 閱讀經書, 但苦無修鍊之途, 總覺得不能只靠知性的途徑提升自己. 因著某些因緣, 去年開始禪修, 除間中參加禪修營及共修外, 每天堅持靜坐修習, 亦看有關書籍. 覺得自己比以前較平和, 也感受到更大的慈悲心. 又因為從前對天主教的體驗, 總喜歡將之與佛法比較, 偶有所得.短短一年多以來, 我得到什麼? 簡單說, 是多認識了自己、遇困難可以較平靜、憤懣心比前減少、對不同意見或態度較包容. 當然, 我還會常常失控, 或缺乏自省, 但至少我事後自己會檢討. 前面還有很長的路要走, 但知道自己開始踏上正路, 心裡總比以前安穩. 餘下就得靠自己的毅力了.願大家共勉!

菜甫

---------------------------
菜甫:
Wednesday, 18-Oct-00 13:47:41
202.67.238.253 writes:

你說的,好有同感。都是大概F2-3的時候,開始懷疑任何有疑點,值得懷疑的事,當時D修女(還是我媽﹖)就說:信那不能見的、不可信的,方為信德!!

天呀,鬼唔知那是信德,但這樣的信德,未免太兒戲了,跟迷信有何分別﹖長大後我才知,原來人真的很迷信。天主教迷信,基督教迷信,佛教也迷信;不單迷信怪力亂神,更迷信信仰以解救之名實行對人的欺壓。

“對人生深層意義或靈性的探索”,說得真好,我想有些人生出來就有這樣的傾向,或許是生生世世追求的延續。就正如你對拜呂祖的記憶很有親切感一樣,我不能擺脫我作為天主教徒的身分和歷史與記憶,也不打算這樣做,但我卻不能不說,記憶有時也會是個包袱。

當然,這個包袱來自兩方面。我不介意一方面認作天主教徒,另一方面又學佛,但如果我媽知道定會感到不安,因為我彷彿背叛了她和天主。這我還不介意,但今天你提到某君,我就覺得有些壓力了。對我而言,某君就像個靈修上的師傅,不怒而威的尊嚴還是有些的。我不是說她不包容,事實上她亦好像很有興趣各樣宗教似的,但交談下又不覺得是。我的意思是,我一天在這個(基督徒)圈子泡,一天也不希望太張揚自己學佛的事,雖然那班都是較包容的,但同時也脫不了基督徒(教)中心。

然而,這令我感到很寂寞,彷彿,“信”佛的人都不會信基督,反之亦然,是絕對的mutually exclusive,要不然就是今是而昨非。我很有興趣你說“因為從前對天主教的體驗, 總喜歡將之與佛法比較, 偶有所得”,因為我也經常這樣做,甚至覺得兩者在實在太多地方相似。比較難的,反而是天主教(本地)和某些基督徒團體所堅持那種“先知”的角色,追求公義,擇善固執相反,本地的佛教徒從來沒有在社會公義方面給過我任何好感。於是我想,對,一起因緣而起,因緣而滅,故不應執著任何事,即使是公義,也是我們有我們說,董禍首有董禍首說;然而回心想,例如在越南、泰國等,不也是有僧人為了和平或保護森林而不惜犧牲自己的生命嗎﹖因正義的原因而反對當權者,無論怎樣說也不能算是壞事吧。

我實在有點迷惘。我不能因自己的想法而要改變一個人家認同的宗教信仰,但女性主義神學家們不正是朝這個方向努力,並且成就斐然嗎﹖

我想你都有想過這些問題吧。你可以跟我分享嗎﹖請替我問候貓們。

甘甘

-------------------------------
介紹一本書
Tuesday, 24-Oct-00 22:51:34
137.189.4.4 writes:

甘甘所提出的問題, 我好想直接回應, 但苦無時間. 這週末我會寫一篇關於自己靈修體驗的文, 也許甘甘會有興趣. 關於佛教與退隱及社會參與, 以及女性主義的沖擊, 我正在看一本書, 很有啟發:Vicki Mackenzie, Cave in the Snow: Tenzin Palmo's Quest for Englightenment, London, Bloomsbury, 1998.

Tenzin Palmo 生於英國, 出家後曾於一洞穴禪修十二年. 書的下半部討論以上所說的問題.

菜甫
 




與家人的關係
Tuesday, 21-Nov-00 12:14:59
168.70.123.216 writes:

佛教說,人的肉身不過是個臭皮囊,身邊和面前的一切亦不過是過眼雲煙,那家人之間的關係又如何?

譬如說,我和家姐的關係一向不大好,不但「傾唔埋」,而且有點格格不入。我從來都沒有想過要「改善」大家的關係。因為人夾人緣,家人亦一樣,不可勉強。後來想到佛教——既然一切不過是過眼雲煙,又何必勉強家人之間的感情。一次偶然的機會,與一位佛教徒朋友談起。她是一個好positive的人。她認為,能成為家人是一種緣份,應好好珍惜。前世因,今世果,今世因,來世果。有些人與家人的關係不佳,可能便是由「前世因」造成的。既然如是,我們便應積極點,那今世和來世的問題都可以減少。

雖然覺得她說得很有道理,但可能因為我是一個「現世主義者」,基本上只關心今世的逸樂,「來世」畢竟是遙遠不可及的事。而且,兄弟姊妹之間的感情究竟特別在何處(除大家在成長中,有特別的經歷,或要互相照顧外)?我的家姐只不過是機緣巧合,成為我的家姐。換了身邊的任何一個人——一個相同的「她」,我們甚至不會成為朋友。既然如此,又何須因為她的「巧合」身份而勉強自己?

如果說,因為我們是姊妹,我們是家人,因此便要如何如何,那究竟我們是否有選擇的份兒?是否因為這種偶然的關係,或這種關係帶來的「責任」,便「應」接受?我不是說,姊妹大可從今陌路,只是想,有必要打破隔膜嗎?

我特別提到姊妹,而不提父母,是因為我覺得兩段關係分別很大。父母的角色,與兄弟姊妹大不相同。

cherry

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cherry,
Sunday, 26-Nov-00 11:25:40
202.67.238.252 writes:

我不是佛教徒,不能說佛教如何如何看,但對於你的無奈和不忿,卻能深刻地體會到,因為我與家人的關係也是充滿著張力;尤其與兄弟的關係(我曾經認為如果我有的是姊妹,那會比較好)。

我有時想,若不是前世的糾葛,人今生不會成為父母子女兄弟姐妹,這些糾葛固然有好有壞,好的報恩,再續前緣;壞的討債,繼續纏繞。當然,輪迴並非絕對真理,你沒必要一定相信,但也不必然就被“現世”牽著走。

我的意思是,如果你與你的姐姐真的那樣夾不來,那就乾脆不要勉強了,大家的距離愈遠,關係說不定就會愈好。我不認為“只因”是出自同一個母體,大家就必然是“一家人”。有時,為了維持“家庭完整”,反會令雙方的關係便加惡化。

我最反感是兄弟姊妹中間,有太多的take it for granted,我就是因此跟我的弟弟吵翻了,至今他還對我懷恨在心。然而,不能否認的,又是兄弟姊妹間實在太多糾纏不清的恩怨情仇,因此,我認為最好deal with it的方法就是:離開。當然,如果你“積極點”,“化解”了你和你姐姐之間的業債,那你們此世之後,永永遠遠也不會再在同一條街上刷身而過,或只會以禮相待,那還是比較好的,但我想,首先你還是先互相避開一下,那比較好。

甘甘

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Replies:
很多謝你的意見,甘甘。我也曾以為哥哥可能比家姐可愛﹗真有意思。如果我和家姐「不幸」要再續前緣,我想我也情願來生重新開始。很同意你的說法,家人之間保持距離反而好。可能因此,我和父母的關係反而無礙。最怕是因為應該如何如何而勉強靠近,就如我和我家姐﹗之前也曾為這個問題而煩惱,現在我已經放開了。有些事,有些關係,是無法勉強,是性格問題也好,緣份問題也好……或許以後,我會變,她會變,誰知道?那是以後的事,亦可能是一個人的不同階段。非常同意你說,家人之間太多take for granted 的東西﹗很害怕這類關係,簡直想逃﹗謝謝你,甘甘,直說到心坎哩﹗ (n/t) (cherry) (27-Nov-00 06:54:06)

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還有,你說得對,我確是給「現世」拖著走。如果用今日比喻今世,明日比喻來世,我便有點兒像「當一天和尚,敲一天鐘」,有一天沒一天﹗ (n/t) (cherry) (27-Nov-00 10:28:07)

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cherry,
Monday, 27-Nov-00 13:56:16
202.67.238.252 writes:

不過,說來好像很矛盾,佛家教人要活在當下,我相信用一理論卻認為不應被「現世」拖著走。我想,我現在也正在 "suffer"緊類近的事情,這些情,這些"sufferings"每 年我老豆回來住幾星期我都要重新經歷一次。其實他很疼我,我也算尊敬他,但同住實在令人難以忍受,往往一些小事便讓我暴跳如雷。於是這次我想,我可以改善這個情況嗎﹖事關他們到明年四月就會來住幾個月,我真的想過不如自殺算了。

當然,我冇理由這樣就死了,所以若我要渡過這一劫,真的不得不先作好準備。還有,他們可能會更繼續為我安排未來,但我沒有用,到今時今日還是依靠父母的蔭庇為生,不能再反抗他們(我已做過兩次,但都是忍無可忍了,不叛逆他們,我的生命就等如是完結了)。其實,我現在學佛,也有個很大的隱憂,因為如果有天我“信”了,那就意味著我可能要第三次背叛他們。我常戲謔:忠孝兩難全——忠是忠於自己,孝是孝於父母。可能我今生是來討債的,但討到以後,卻又發現貨不對版!

甘甘

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on parents
Tuesday, 28-Nov-00 11:00:46
168.70.123.152 writes:

dear gum mama, i hope u weren't serious when u mention about killing yourself. i can imagine how anxious u must be feeling about the situation. if they are merely coming back for a few months, then it's just a matter of enduring for that transient period of time. may be things won't be as bad as you imagine... i mean till now they still haven't told u about their long term plan, right? everything is merely your speculation.

i know living with one's own parents can be difficult. i was kind of worried about it before i moved back to live with my parents (after 14 years of seperation). i anticipated quarrels and disagreements, and even oppressions etc. fortunately, things seem to be alright so far. i guess partly because few months before i moved back to hk, i chatted with my dad about my worries on living with them, and that conversation might have helped a bit, for they might try to be more 'careful'. i wonder whether or not discussing the issue with your parents may help at all, what do u think?

bamb

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Re: cherry,
Tuesday, 28-Nov-00 13:08:50
208.151.64.146 writes:

我想佛家說的「活在當下」比較積極,譬如說,要我們珍惜當下的緣份,解決當下的問題。

家人的關係最纏繞不清,令人懊惱。平日甚麼都無所謂,偏偏對家裡的一切卻特別敏感,連晚起床也可以成為咕嚕數天的大事。有些事,可以說,但沒有結果,就如晚起床,一句不健康,為你好,你已無言以對;有些事,說了不如不說,例如你的「理想」,或簡簡單單一些想做的事,大家相隔的人和事太多,甚至每日看的新聞和報紙都不同,充其量委屈地說一句「女大女世界」。很多事都是說不清的。

我自小便依賴父母,近幾年才自己拿主意,父母亦慢慢接受我「長大」。但有時候回頭看,又有點難過:父母從我出生便為我張羅一切,都頭來卻變成大半個局外人;以前是父親一臉嚴肅地教訓我和家姐,現在面對我家姐咄咄逼人的口吻,竟不大(能)回應……老了。也想過他的主觀固執,但更想到他現在面對我們有多少無奈……有時候想,如果他不老,或仍未覺自己老,有甚麼不同意,即管大吵一場,可會更加痛快?我現在只知道,他老了。或許家人之間好好醜醜都不過一個過程。無論以前如何如何,在適當的時間,大家走在一起,竟無法想像般容易。

甘甘,你也不必太介懷所謂「忠孝」,那不過是一連串的爭吵。至於爭吵的次數,對故事的結局並非決定性的。爭吵的內容可能也並不重要,要知道,少吃了重要的早餐也可能是大事。

可能我比較放任自己,對任何事,我都只能說「順其自然」。

cherry

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回頭終歸是我執
Thursday, 30-Nov-00 12:36:44
202.67.238.253 writes:

今天,我又為“當下”的煩惱感到depress,後來去了佛哲書屋看書,忽然看到一段:“人苦,是因為執著快樂,抗拒痛苦,於是,心就會隨著苦樂而起伏。”那時,眼睛突然糢糊了。那個理論不是第一次看,也不是第一次受當頭棒喝;人就是那麼善忘。

他與家人的關係和感情,總會糾纏著很多complexity,很難說得清楚,我不是與家人有甚麼“不和”,我只是無法與他們共同生活。一直我都是逃避痛苦,但痛苦卻會自己找上門。現在問題就在我太“留戀”一個人的生活,縱使那有諸多不好也是好(當然比現在好得多),那減低了我接受痛苦的能力。我彷彿無法接受當下的“現實”,總是想:一個人就好了。那實在無濟於事。

是不是有句詩,是關於河流流過了,但花草卻不為所動之類﹖我想就是那個境界了,你靜寂如木石,任令流水刷過,也安住心中,彷如甚麼都沒有發生過。

我不是把問題看成是“自己的”就等於問題可以解決,但人人條命都是他自己的,人人都要為自己負責。每個人有每個人的業,別人都幫不上忙。我見到我老豆就會好激氣,但那又如何﹖他根本不想幫自己,我生氣,隨了為自己造業之外,甚麼效果也沒有。我這幾天都在思考的,都不是怎樣幫他,而是幫我自己放下。

gumgum

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Replies:
Re: 回頭終歸是我執 (cherry) (01-Dec-00 06:51:37)

只要我仍在向前行,你是拖不了我的後腿的。我很同意是,即使明白了道理,但道理還不可以是自己的,不過,在你最需要的時候,享受到微型的“頓悟”,那種感覺仍是很美妙的,至於以後﹖我想我們都是不要太
執著此間的悟,以免到時又陷於執著了。 (n/t) (gumgum) (01-Dec-00 11:13:47)

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i'm still reading 'many lives, many masters'. it talks about learning in the physical states, esp in relationship etc. perhaps it's not too far fetched to think that it's something for u to learn at this stage, by giving u the opportunity to live with your parents lei. may be it's not a bad idea to treasure the moments living together. mind u, i think your dad is quite cute. he seems to be a happy man wor. (n/t) (bamb) (02-Dec-00 09:27:30)

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一個沒頭沒腦的問題
Tuesday, 05-Dec-00 11:50:53
168.70.120.65 writes:

甘甘:

剛才無意中想起一個有趣的問題。不知道你有沒有遇到這種情況——有些人看不過某些人的行為,但偏偏自己卻又步後塵。我家姐以前常常對父親很沒有禮貌(當然是故意的了),連豈碼的尊重都談不上,我對此很不以為然。但是,現在我想……我對她會不會(不自覺地)有「雷同」的態度呢?

可能人與人之間的關係也像食物鏈一樣,環環緊扣,所不同的只是將這些關係聯繫起來的不是「吃」,而是A對B不好,B對C不好,C對D不好……

不知你在食物鏈另一端的對頭又是誰?﹗

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Replies:
sorry to interrupt, i find your comment very interesting and would like to say a few words. i guess there are many different types of relationships, some are destructive and dysfunctional, whereas some are loving and constructive, and some may be indifferent.... sometimes it is very funny to see, esp relationship within families, that one person is willing to hit and the other one is willing to be beaten!! but it is not necessarily the case that everyone has to have at least one relationship of the destructive sort. indeed life is so short, why don't we have more loving and caring relationship, and make the most out of life? (n/t) (bamb) (06-Dec-00 10:44:10)

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Re:
 Thursday, 07-Dec-00 05:52:27

168.70.123.117 writes:

很開心又知道一個positive的人﹗我想一個人態度positive,不可以完全歸因於「幸運」,各人有各人的難處,可能就因為你處理了不少「困局」,現在才可以這樣positive。我亦承認自己怕困難,尤其是個人關係上的困局。與朋友相處,即使大家不同,甚至性格迴異,大家仍可以融洽相處。一方面是因為大家畢竟不是「朝見口,晚見面」,而人與人之間大概還是像冬天裡的豬,需要這種適當的距離;另一方面是朋友懂得互相尊重,不會胡亂judge對方,但家人便不同。大概家人覺得有資格judge,有時候竟不留情面,加上一些take for granted的想法,小小的事情,都會演變成很大的壓力,互相生活在對方「不認同」甚至「否定」的陰影下,有點吃不消﹗當然還有一個原因,便是家人是不可以選擇的,像考試裡面的「必答題」﹗

從我小時候開始,我家姐遇上不如意的事(大概都是家裡的事吧——至於事情的原因,以前的,大多數與我無關,現在的,當然很多是與我有關的),便會故意將門「呯」來「呯」去,即使在深夜,在父母早己入睡的時候亦如是。因為家裡其他人關門都很輕,因此我對這種聲音,特別敏感——像是一種沖著聲浪範圍內的人而來的statement,而房子空間越細,效果亦越令人難受,大概跟「I’m angry!」有異曲同工之妙﹗我對這種聲音的反應,是既憤怒,又覺得很大壓力。小時候,是壓力(或害怕)居多,現在,是憤怒居多。我經常想,但願以後的生活,可以free from這種聲音帶來的壓力……但直到現在,我仍未能如願以償……且不說問題是否與我有關,我都無意理會了。

正是因為我希望生活中盡量充滿快樂,因此不願觸及不愉快的事。這種想法,可能眼光比較短淺,但我真的有點氣餒,更不願意將自己起居生活的地方變成一個磨煉自己的地方甚至「煉獄」﹗

cherry

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Re: Re:
Friday, 08-Dec-00 11:13:24
208.151.64.219 writes:

hi cherry,

thanks for saying that i am a positive person. i guess ever since i read a book on positive thinking about 15 years ago, i always remind myself to think of the positive side of things. sooner or later it becomes a habit, i guess.

but u are right, i used to have my 「困局」too. i used to be bullied by my peers, even as young as the age of 5 or so, i remember being bullied by kids at school bus, one of whom was even a year younger than i. they pulled my hair and was quite nasty to me... it was never easy for me to make friends at school, for some unknown reason (well, perhaps being queer may be one reason for it) i often find it very difficult to fit in; as if i am always an 'outsider' trying to understand a world that i don't really belong. that sense of alienation used to torment me quite a bit, until i learned to have fun in my own world, and find intellectual fulfilment in my own thinking and imagination.

life was not easy at home either. i was forced to separate from my grandmother (who brought me up till 6) and lived with my own parents. relationship with my dad was very bad, we used to have very few communication, and he beat me up a lot. i used to hate him very much. i became more and more a delinquent (a subtle sort though). i used to damage public properties, eg cutting electric wires, wrote dirty words on the walls etc. perhaps it's my way to express my frustration.

near the end of primary school, i began to be able to make some very good friends, my social skills has improved. but after primary 6, none of my friends could get back to our original school, so i was alone again. form 1 was a particularly traumatic year, i became one of the main targets of bullying, everyone just loved to make fun of me and said very horrible things to me, and worse still, nearly everyone rejected me. meanwhile my relationship with my dad had worsen a hell lot, in retrospect, it's partly to do with his stress from his work. at that phase of my life i was filled with hatred and anger. i even thought to myself, if i had an atomic bomb, i would be very happy to light it up!!! if i had the power the kill, i guess i would do it....

form 2 was a much better year, i began to make some friends again. it was one of the happiest years i've had. but after form 2, i left hk to study abroad. that means i had to start from scratch again. this time i faced alienation even more directly (due to cultural alienation), as well as being away from my own family for the first time. again, some girls liked to bully me... but i was changing, i didn't respond the way i used to do when i was in form 1. i guess partly it has something to do with me getting to know buddhism just before i left hk, i was introduced to the idea of karma and reincarnation. such concepts have somehow enlightened me, and helped me to feel more at ease with my situation. also, having read the book i mentioned earlier on postivie thinking, i told myself that i should make the most out of this fabulous opportunity to study abroad. thus i've tried very hard to work on my inter-personal relationship, even though deep down i am still a loner. i began to be more willing to open my heart, and learned to have soul to soul communications. this move is certainly very rewarding, it is still one of the things i value most in life!

being constantly separated from good friends and family by physical distance (eg i have to move on to a different land, or my friends have to leave), i've learnt to treasure relationships and appreciate people a lot more. life is short, and everything is subject to a constant flux of change; what else can we do except to treasure every single moment of being together, even with people who appear disagreeable and irritating... why are they so disagreeable and irritating? could it simply be the way we perceive them? perhaps they have their stories and histories which have shaped them the way they are now. with empathy, they may not be as disagreeable and irritating as they first appear.

anyway, i think i've written too much, too long-winded... as if i am writing my whole life history here. hope u haven't ZZzzzZZZzzzz yet:P
cheers.

bamb

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thank you very much for your sharing. hard to imagine that a perons who talks so gently (online) actually had such hard time. btw, what's the book that affects you so much? (n/t) (cherry) (09-Dec-00 10:29:04)

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that book was originally written in english, but i forgot its english title. the translated title, if i remember correctly, is 如何創造奇蹟, or something of that name. and it advocates the 可能思想. and i find a lot of truth in that book. eg one's wishes will really come true if one truly believes in it.... thus it is very important to wish for the right things, for the things that one truly wants... (n/t) (bamb) (09-Dec-00 12:41:17)

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車厘子:
Tuesday, 05-Dec-00 23:10:37
202.67.238.252 writes:

你問了一個非常好的問題,昨天我們與一位法師談了一個下午(纏了她一個下午),法師似乎想用因果去解釋一切現象。當時聽得是有點不耐煩的,但現在回想,也不是無道理,雖然可能有點武斷。

你說你家姐對你父親很沒禮貌,其實我細佬對我父親也是,其實他很愛他,但偏偏就是大家都看不過眼大家。我比較收斂和畀面,有甚麼啃不落的,都默默消化掉,或只跟朋友投訴,極少跟他衝突。但這並不代表我很接受他,那是很難解釋的感受,總之無論怎樣也有層隔膜。

昨晚吃飯時,我收到姑姐的電話,她說要請眾人吃飯,但堅持要與父親說清楚,因為我阿叔夫婦都會來;姑姐就很驚老豆會“教訓”他,令大家都不開心。因阿叔以前很唔生性。我忽然想起,其實我老豆對他家人的態度都幾差,尤其是他終身不肯原諒他老豆激死了他阿媽,累他blah blah blah.....但他又不肯諒解因為死了老母而墮落的細佬,寧願他訓街都不會借錢給他。他對三個妹妹的態度也不見得好。有時他在食肆遭到不禮貌對待,但見他對侍應的態度也不說得上好,好多不留情面的批評;以前他個樣比較四正人們還畀面,現在他完全糟老頭look,人們便更不客氣了。我不知這是不是因果報應,如果是的話,你所說的“食物鏈”,到最後受番晒的都是自己。

亦因此,我會好驚我對我老豆會有報應,堅決不生孩子也是有原因的。但要我跟他打破隔膜又真的不想,不知點算。所以只祈望大家見得愈少愈好。不過,冤親債主若不能解決,下世又會再見,真是煩死。

gumgum

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Re: 車厘子:
Thursday, 07-Dec-00 05:50:13
168.70.123.117 writes:

甘甘,想不到你在這方面的經驗,簡直和我如同一轍﹗

本來想說如果「報應」真能解決問題,我倒不大抗拒。後來down 左兩次機,沖完涼後,又改變了主意——我要是對著這樣的子女數十年(雖然我自以為和父母的關係無特別問題),我想我還是死了算﹗

原本想說不大介意「報應」,因為如果大家可以透過另一種關係,去體驗自己的態度對身邊的人的影響,倒不是壞事。可能自此以後,大家可以增加諒解。後來又發現,相當一部份人(不知道是否包括自己),只會看到自己所受的委屈,對別人的難堪之處卻置若罔聞;即使倒換關係,互換角色,仍只會專注自己的委屈,而不會回過頭來反醒自己之前的態度……大概人與人之間的緣份真的可遇不可求,非要等到你所說的「神績」似的頓悟,才能放開懷。

甘甘,連日來的討論,越發覺得自己不是一個open的人。話說了很多,也聽了不少,但都是自說自話,沒有把別人的話聽進去,緊緊地「保守」著自己,不願放開。平時常說要open自己,但說到切身的問題,便築起銅牆鐵壁。因此,說到底,甚麼的人便有甚麼的問題(自作孳)。解決問題,自是不可假於外求——只是實際上無法做到……你呢?你去找法師的時候,又抱著甚麼心態?可有open to 所有的可能(包括改變自己)?又有沒有付諸實踐的決心和勇氣?還是,你和我一樣,仍在呆頭呆腦地等著「神績」?

cherry
 



為小貓超度
Thursday, 07-Dec-00 09:52:45
202.67.238.252 writes:

今天回家途中,看見一只被車輾得只剩下一堆皮毛和白骨的小貓,感到非常難過。南無阿彌陀佛。我不知道是哪一只,但想到我曾餵過牠們幾兄弟姊妹,或許會是我特別疼的那只。無論如何,牠往生了,希望下世投得一宅好人家,不要再做街貓了。南無阿彌陀佛。

gumgum

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Replies:
poor mow mow... hope she is happier at another realm of existence. (n/t) (bamb) (08-Dec-00 05:23:52)
 



CHERRY
Saturday, 16-Dec-00 23:52:31
202.67.238.253 writes:

有新野可能係件好事,因為人就係咁賤,只有在遇到困難時才會想到人生之類的問題,冇事時就浪費生命,你說對不對﹖不過,我都病左幾日,當係休息啦。不過,我在病的過程中也沒有思考生命,只係覺得病真係唔好,做唔到野,唉,真係死不悔改。

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Replies:
所以咪話小病是福﹗但雖然如此,你還是快點好起來吧﹗氣功有幫助嗎?還是你病到連氣功都唔想做? (n/t) (cherry) (17-Dec-00 11:48:33)
 



an idea occurs to me just now....
Saturday, 30-Dec-00 03:29:12
203.198.23.26 writes:

thinking about spirituality, morality, and those grand concepts, as well as the idea of using the net to form a community etc. just now.... an idea occurs to me. why don't we have a virtual space to chat and discuss with the ppl in 明光社about this kind of topics?? i'm sure they would have a lot to say if they can write 52 pages in response to the topic on homosexuality. it will be nice to hear their views, and let them hear ours. what do u think? am i being too idealistic in thinking that we can have a rational discussion with them? anyone knows if they have a website or chat room?

bamb

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Replies:
F.-U.-C.-K. the ming kwong ser, may all of the trash go to hell. i will not waste my precious life to talk to devils!!!!!!!!! (n/t) (01-Jan-01 12:42:39)

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CALM DOWN, CALM DOWN!! the ming kwong ser ppl may be devils, but they have their rights to express their views... even though they express views that are disagreeable, if we cut off all communication with them, there will be no way to compromise nor to attain harmony in this society... well, at least that's my simple and naive opinion.... (n/t) (01-Jan-01 13:11:26)
 



偷懶人自首記
Sunday, 31-Dec-00 12:36:51
203.198.129.68 writes:

我真是一個沒責任的人,原來摩菩提整了容我也完全懵然不知。而你又不苦苦相逼,令我實在內疚萬分。不過業報就是如此,我的多傑專頁顯得太凋零了,我亦覺得要把它送院急救。請你等一下啦!

還有,我個人覺得作為兄弟、親人是沒有得選擇的,這梫~成熟後的果,當你嘗果的時候又邊種下因,在互為的狀態下,顯出了樂和苦,但兩者都不長存。又何需太牽掛,當一切變得像熟手技工的時候,自在就出來了。有時我自已也笑,有些人連做朋友都冇可能,但他又奈何是兄弟,逼住硬食,真係邊理得咁多。係嘛!

多傑
 




理性討論?
Wednesday, 17-Jan-01 06:46:34
192.245.196.14 writes:

怎麼大家在「菩提種子」的討論都比較「理性」?是我們尋道的過程已經很「理性」,還是尋道尋得了個「理性」的「結果」?「理性」的思考是否已經決定了「非宗教」呢?

cherry

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Replies:
personally i believe spirituality is a very experiential thing. but till now i still haven't found a religion that touches the depth of my heart:( (n/t) (bamb) (17-Jan-01 12:18:44)

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宗教
Monday, 29-Jan-01 13:36:16
202.67.238.252 writes:

我終於明白CHERRY的意思。對呀,彷彿肯定宗教是件不大好的事,因為我也同意,宗教是吃人的,因為人吃人,有了宗教,人就可以心安理得的繼續吃人。不過,有時宗教也不是一件壞事,尤其當宗教人士們偶然覺悟,按良心去做事的時候。今天我去了爭取居港權的集會,很多年青基督徒出來支持爭取人士,我覺得,彷彿因為有了宗教信仰,人做的事就會被放大,無論做好事還是壞事;不過,那也是合理的,因為,如果宗教是教人做好(未必一定是好,當然,但起碼原則上是),那末,明知善惡而行惡捨善,的確需要加倍受罰。然而,倒轉過來就奇怪了,有信仰的人“必然”是“應該”做好事了,為甚麼他做了好事也要受稱許﹖大家有所不知了,就是因為其他的宗教人士沒有盡本分,所以稱許這些按良心做事的人,只是為了儆醒其他沒有盡責的人而已。大家同意嗎﹖

甘甘

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Re: 宗教
Tuesday, 30-Jan-01 08:09:37
168.70.123.243 writes:

其實我無意否定宗教,宗教也可以是一種個人經驗。對於個人經驗,無論是關於任何人或任何事,我都有點兒「盲目崇拜」的。宗教大概是各種「靈性修行」的其中一個途徑。有的人喜歡群居,有的喜歡獨居。所謂「靈性修行」亦然,有的喜歡或需要靠攏宗教,有的喜歡獨自修行,有的根本不感興趣。

我們都有害怕和不知所措的時候,宗教為很多人提供了一個「簡易」的途徑,讓大家可以繼續信守一些開始出現動搖的信念。我的意思是,當我們開始懷疑某些東西或思想時,宗教「可以」將我們帶回原位,讓我們「再次」「認識」到這些東西的「真確性」。於是,我們逐漸以為,我們可以在這座「庇護工場」找到安全感。至於這個「庇護工場」最終發展成為「利益團體」,卻是後話。我想「尋道人」關心的不在這種利益如何成為一個institution,而在於這種思想或信仰如何成為一個institution。比如說,宗教如何淪為「在上者」的工具,大概不是你我最關心的。我們大概更關心宗教如何演變為一種common thought,甚至集體成見,成為闡釋「善惡」的權威機制……

當然,宗教的意義不一定是消極的。對很多人來說,一大群志同道合的人聚首一堂,分享各自的經驗,倒也樂也融融。只是,我認為,這不過是種形式,要分享要行善要accomplish什麼東西也好,有的是途徑。你大概亦可以將這個message board喚作fellowship﹗重要的是我們的本心和
驗驗。

殊途尚且可以同歸,而我們所求的甚至不一定是同路,又何須費煞思量在宗教中走進走出呢?

cherry

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Re: 宗教 (cherry) (30-Jan-01 08:09:37)
胡扯了一通,才發覺好像還沒有回應你的問題。我覺得你說的是一個普遍的問題,而不僅是宗教問題。只不過因為你的焦點放在宗教,所以當作一個宗教問題來思考。 (n/t) (cherry) (30-Jan-01 08:32:58)

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抗拒宗教?(the real one) 抗拒宗教?
Thursday, 01-Feb-01 12:22:34
202.67.238.252 writes:

對宗教缺乏認同,不一定是抗拒宗教,可能只是出於一種「抽離」的生活態度。大概成年人對很多東西都不會或不敢「過份」投入,寧願採取一種「旁觀者」的抽離態度,不願冒昧入內。偶爾還不忘自娛——保持距離,可以看得更加清楚﹗「理性」形成的成見對「非理性」的盲點尤其敏感,動輒得咎。宗教自然是首當其衝。批評宗教的同時,亦可以鞭策自己「保持理性和獨立」。

可能是怕失望,所以不再相信,於是保持獨立,逐漸養成一種「自給自足」的「生態環境」,不願依靠任何東西,包括宗教。「事實」上,又好像真的沒有一套完全適合自己的white-box solution。即使對個別宗教經驗有共鳴,對另外的理論仍有保留,或想不通。如果剛巧碰到有認同這個宗教的人,很自然想將問題推到她身上。這時,所謂質疑,其實也是一種求助。

正如旅行一樣,有的喜歡先研究地圖,摸索清楚,甚至將一切安排得天衣無縫,沒有後顧之憂,然後才起行;有的隨興之所至,說走便走。在你途中問這問那甚至指指點點的人,不一定不認同你,反而可能因為有興趣,所以才發問,或者有解決不到的問題,想你幫忙﹗「尋道」亦一樣,有的站在門外探頭探腦,有的登堂入室,看箇究竟。在門外吶喊,不一定是覺得需要「叫醒」你,可能只是想知道裡面的情況﹗

cherry

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Replies:
cherry, u said, "在門外吶喊,不一定是覺得需要「叫醒」你,可能只是想知道裡面的情況﹗" why not go inside then instead of asking others what's in there??? (n/t) (bamb) (10-Feb-01 13:43:38)

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coz i haven't fallen in love with jesus or buddha :-) (n/t) (cherry) (12-Feb-01 11:44:13)

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but u're right. when it comes to personal matters, there's no good to keep probing. (n/t) (cherry) (12-Feb-01 12:01:07)

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宗教2
Thursday, 01-Feb-01 12:44:40
202.67.238.253 writes:

記得師傅曾經一次(又)鬧人,她說,那些人常常對別人的宗教信仰指指點點,認為她們迷信,其實這些人,才是最迷信的——她們迷信自己的不迷信。當然,她的說話可圈可點,但未嘗完全沒有道理。我慢就是指看到別人眼中的小刺,卻看不到自己背後的大樑;不能說任何解釋不到的就等於迷信。

不過,在香港這個靈性沙漠裡,“信仰”在某程度也是令人有壓力的,當然,我覺得某些基督教徒給了人非常壞的印象。以前不得不承認自己是基督徒的時候,通常要加一句:唔係你諗果隻。有段時間,我和馮智活傾偈時,很強烈覺得基督徒應該是要以仁愛作為本分,為公義挺身;但現在我想,不這樣又如何呢﹖我看不起那些迫害我們的人,但難道我們一定比他們強嗎﹖現在我(為某些與我無關的事)發了願禁唸十萬遍經咒(同時把所得到的功德迴向受苦難逼迫的人),都是希望可以為眾生做一點事,但大家想我居然這麼迷信。但當我認為基督徒應該是怎樣怎樣的時候,難道我不也是迷信嗎﹖或許迷信是有分別,但或許迷信都沒有分別。

算了,我都不知自己在說甚麼。

甘甘

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Re: 宗教2
Friday, 02-Feb-01 06:30:46
203.198.23.24 writes:

甘甘,我想有關迷信與否的指摘,可能大家都太敏感了。沒錯,我也認為「理性」可能也是一種成見,甚至你說(或師傅說)的迷信。但是,批評的人不一定都持否定的態度,這亦是我有「抗拒宗教」所感的原因。可能正如你所說,「信仰」在這個「迷信」「理性」的「主流」環境中備受壓力,信徒也就不免有點paranoid(如果這個字過火了,見諒)。有一次我問師傅,怎麼她可以這樣「集大成」,完全沒有衝突嗎(類似意思)?她的具體反應,我已忘了,反正是覺得我的問題有點(也許不止有點)offensive。其實,我很欣賞她對new age的「開放」態度(至少在我看來如是)——雖然我自己對new age有點保留。不想到她有如此反應……如果我一把利劍刺來,當然不能聳聳肩說「對不起,我無意的」。但大家總要心平氣和,才有談下去的可能。可能大家都有太多前提假設,例如信徒大多盲目崇拜,「無神論者」往往咄咄逼人……最終還是要看大家有沒有談下去的意思。如果無,那大可繼續抱著成見蒙頭大睡。如果有,便應給自己機會。

我確是有點「迷信自己不迷信」的,但我瞭解這樣「迷信自己」也是迷信,因此想「破除」這種迷信。

cherry

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a little thought on religious/spiritual beliefs
Saturday, 10-Feb-01 14:20:55
203.198.23.27 writes:

sometimes i think that forming a religious/spiritual belief is a bit like falling in love: so involuntary, so sudden, so out of expectation:) (well, at least that's how i think of falling in love) some ppl are very rational and clear-headed, it is not easy for those ppl to fall in love nor to form a religious/spiritual belief. some ppl are more passionally inclined, and would fall in love easily. when a seemingly spiritual experience occur, they are likely to form a religious/spiritual belief accordingly. it seems to me that it's a matter of temperament whether or not one buys into religious/spiritual beliefs easily, and i doubt any one temperament is better than another. in my own case, i feel that i have some kind of schizophrenia:P on one hand, i often challenge my own ideas, including those religious/spiritual ones. and in the name of intellectual integrity, i won't allow myself to hold unjustified beliefs. thus i would rather suspend my judgements and abid to pyrrhonism. on the other hand, i am aware that i can't help forming some beliefs, eg the beliefs that all beings are interconnected, and we are all bonded, and "all is one" etc. i have no ways to justify those claims, just like i have no way to justify my feeling of being in love with someone. those beliefs are as much a part of me as my hands or toes etc. if i can accept the existence of my hands and toes, why can't i accept the existence of those beliefs? but that doesn't mean my beliefs are true/false, it merely means that they are a part of who i am!

bamb

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Replies:
totally 'true', only that religion is such a good discussion topic that i can't help probing (behind the door) :-) if i was inside, i might not attempt to look into it becoz i would have known already how it works. also, when in love, you may simply accept what your beloved is no matter what 'defect' s/he seems to have. but for religion, you may want some佟hanges, properly some changes for 'good'. (n/t) (cherry ) (11-Feb-01 11:42:56)
 




Does God exist?
Tuesday, 20-Feb-01 04:44:05
61.10.49.128 writes:

First, cosmology: people already beleive in a superior being. Where did this God come from? But asking this question is like asking, "How long is the color yellow?" the questions does not make sense. it is inapprorpriate. We aregue that God created time, matter and space. But the question that is asked is a degreed question. Meaning there is a mathematical measurement to it. But the answer is non-degreed. God's existence cannot be calculated. God is not an effect. Every effect needs a cause, but God is not an effect. It is therefore, more rational to believe than not to beleive.

2nd teleology: God designed the universe according to His purpose. Once we have determined that a Personal creator exists, we examin the external, physical world. This argument gives us information about God, the person. not so much arguments for his existence...because we already believe he exists. God is purposeful, intelligent, orderly, humorous, caring, playful, artistic, relational...etc... Some say that
 God is not efficient. they will say that the ostrich cannot conserve energy...but why does an omnipotent God need to conserve energy? God creates things out of joy for his pleasure. Like an artist uses paint to communicate an idea or emotion, he done'st conserve paint.

3. anthropology: then we talk about the internal world. the study of man....C.S. Lewis says, "If i find capacities that are unfulfilled in this world, possibly i was created for another world." this makes sense, if humans think that we are not made for this world, then perhaps there is another world that God created us for. As christians we believe in eternal life....life in God's kingdom...i beleive we fit very wel there.

A. Conscience; i desire the good, yet regularly fail to live up to my conscience.
B. rationality: i am more than body parts...i am the thing that has parts. i'm not just a body, i've got a soul, we are free to make decisions. not a robot.
C. intimacy: i yearn for intimacy...but i feel alone----why do we feel lonely? hwat has separated us? SIN
D. meaning: i thirst to know the meaning and purpose to life: isn't that what we all want to know..why are we on earth? to know and be more like Christ.
E. Evil: i want to get rid of evil, pian, death, but can i?

So, if creater God created order and purpose, we're created wtih order and purpose, why do we feel broken? what has separated us? SIN

John 14:6 says, that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Matthew 16:15 asks the non-christian this...who do you say that i (Jesus) am?

5. Psychology: We look for something more. we look for evidence of intellectual work. If Christianity is true, then an eternity of happiness awaits the faithful. if it's false, nothing but annihilation follows death. If we follow God, then we may lose the earthly pleasures that are satisfying for the moment, but we gain the pleasures that will last forever...treasures in heaven.

Micah

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what a missionary post! so cliche and boring. (n/t) (DNLM) (20-Feb-01 12:52:02)

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thx ALMIGHTY god (n/t) (CY) (21-Feb-01 06:23:00)
 
 

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